Forthcoming pedal from Robert Keeley.

Steelbender Preview: Keeley Japanese Apartment

how innovative

Gees, another bypass/looper pedal. $25 worth of parts and about 1/2 hour in the workshop.

Is it you or the equipment?

No one is saying that it is the most innovative or the first looper to come along. What a lot of people fail to realize is that, sure...it may be $25 in parts and 1/2 hour labor, etc... but 99% of most guitarists DON'T solder or wire their own boxes. It's easy to sit back and criticize if you have the know-how to make these boxes. Somebody's got to make them for those who don't and whether it's the makers of the listed products or Keeley, they aren't going to do it for $25.

Just because somebody else makes a similar product doesn't mean there shouldn't be more competitors either. I guess BMW should just give it up because Mercedes has been doing something for awhile. More choices are better for guitarists. I don't blame Keeley one bit for making something his customers want

You're right, they're not $25. I think pedal-racks is doing them for $40 per loop.

http://www.pedalboards.com/bp%20strips.htm

"Poor soul, he was just too high strung... I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear."

Half hour? Heck; I spend that much time just on labeling and clearcoating. There's also the drilling, assembling, wiring & soldering. I wonder how many of you people have actually built pedals that are of professional quality. If this stuff is being done carefully, by hand, and not in a factory assembly line, it can literally take HOURS just for ONE SINGLE Dual Loop pedal (for example). Of course I'm artistic and a bit on the perfectionist side.

But when you're stuffing all those components into a tiny box, the tolerances are tight and there is no room for error. You HAVE to drill, assemble, and solder everything just right or it will short out. If not now, on the road, right in the middle of a gig.

And $25 parts? A good switch (FullTone) alone costs $14...

I would not complain about a loop box being too expensive; I'd compain about one that leaves me high and dry in the middle of a show due to cheap parts or crappy workmanship.

Hi Skred, all of the manufacturers listed here are building in batches, presumably.
30 minutes is actually a pretty good estimate

In 100 batch lots, here is a breakdown, supported by my own production figures:

Mark and drill boxes, 8 hours = 4.8 minutes each

parts procuring, 4 hours = 2.4 minutes each

solder subassemblies, 16 hours = 10 minutes each

assembly, 5 hours = 3 minutes each

final solder, 7.5 hours = 4.5 minutes each

install feet, back plate, put in box,etc= misc = 5 minutes each

total is under 30 minutes

Silkscreening is usually not done in-house and included in the parts estimate

3pdts are very econmical in the lots that most builders by them at. I actually think the parts for this are way less than $25 at bulk prices

now, I don't think anyone should begrudge or try to guess how much profit is justified. I think if this thing sells for around 60, it is probably a good price and not excessive profit.

world's only double doubleneck lefthanded band
http://gaganbros.com

I did talk briefly to Robert and he mentioned that the tentative $60 tag is just that. He said if anything it might be a little lower. Also mentioned that he offers free shipping.

I think it's wonderful that there are more people, both amateur and professional, building great things today. The thing I did notice on the Keeley was how nice the wiring was and everything seemed to be laid out in an efficient manner. Maybe clean wiring has nothing to do with the performance...but it is certainly more attractive to me on a lot of levels.

I have several friends who build homebrew boxes and while they work nicely, they don't look as immaculate as the Keeley. Not to say everything is like this...I just know that I personally wouldn't have an issue with getting a well-made box with reputable customer service backing it up even if it's merely a looper.

By the way, Robert says if enough people hate the idea here, he will not make it.

;

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By the way, Robert says if enough people hate the idea here, he will not make it.

;

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Hey Jason,
Please tell me that last part was a joke, I am a member of this forum, and like the people here just fine but I would never discontinue a product due to the opinions of the good people here. I hope Robert would stick to his guns on this one...I am pretty sure you were joking.

I just wanted to be sure you and Robert knew that everbody here is very sick or jobless Possibly a social outcast slightly married or a shill effects builder like me! (ok, maybe not everybody)



Little gizmos, adaptors and such are always needed even if twenty other guys already make them. Players still like buying from their favorite effects guru...Robert is certainly one of the most appreciated builders and breaking new ground with every tone toy is not needed....and that price is certainly very fair.

For what it worth, marking and drilling boxes is usually nixed in runs of 100, we have 5 drill presses (each with a different size bit) here and a drill guide that was made for us by a local machine shop, this holds the box and we can drill about 8 holes in around a minute. A universal fixture or seperate drill fixtures for each product are needed. Larger runs (500+)are dropped off with that same local machine shop to be CNC machined to an extreme degree of accuracy and lower cost for drilling. Each builder and or each product has specific needs that can cut or add to build times and price.

After adding the "tweaks" page to the Barber page I realized how few players feel comfy with an iron, even though the parts to mod a direct drive are about a dollar we get requests every day to mod units and players more than willing to pay...I got the transmission on my car flushed two days ago, that cost $120 ...I bet the parts for the J.A. cost more than the fluids to flush my trans and I am sure Robert takes at LEAST as much time and as much care as my mechanic did.



David

David Barber<br /><a href="http://www.barberelectronics.com" target="_blank">www.barberelectronics.com</a>

We use a Unibit and good cutting oil to drill all holes in with one drill.No fixtures, just good template guides made of phenolic for durablity. each hole is handmarked and guided.


Someday I would like to have 5 drill presses!
[ I know they are cheap at Harbor Freight etc]


world's only double doubleneck lefthanded band
http://gaganbros.com

Ahh, we a have a few unibits around here as well, we use those for the "one offs" they seem to cut cleaner through aluminum than colbalt bits too. We started with a single drill press and wooden drill guides that we had to rebuild every 25 units...after we found the drill fixtures (cost about $300 each) we breathed a great sigh of relief...not to mention no more units being "grabbed" by a bit and launched accross the shop...shweeeepooooink!!!!

I could post a picture of our drill fixtures if anybody here cares.

Daveed

David Barber<br /><a href="http://www.barberelectronics.com" target="_blank">www.barberelectronics.com</a>

I always heard that to make a profit the selling price was ~3x the cost of goods sold if I remember correctly.

Hey David, I would like to see em.

I think robbert should make them. He makes serveral non truebypass pedals and this can be very usefull. 60$ is not too much especially when you have free shipping. If peep are satisfied with his products i think they would order one faster from Keeley than from another loop box builder..

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Originally posted by David Barber:
I could post a picture of our drill fixtures if anybody here cares.

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Yeah.

Hey David,

Good to hear from you as always. Yes...that was a little joke there. Robert gets a pretty good laugh out of how serious a looping pedal can be taken (or not). He'll be the first to tell you there are many out there. You are right about people ordering from their favorite effect guru...another pun but it's kind of like going to your favorite barber.

I agree with Yori that some people might order something from a reputable guy like Keeley faster than someone else (fairly or not).

Those other loopers look great and I'm sure they work just fine. I think the Keeley probably looks closer to the Loooper than anything else shown. Maybe it's just the pictures but I'd bet it's smaller than most. In any event, the more the merrier.

David...when are you going to make a looper that lets you blend in an un-looped signal?


That is a joke, by the way

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Gagan:
I don't think anyone should begrudge or try to guess how much profit is justified. I think if this thing sells for around 60, it is probably a good price and not excessive profit.

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I'd agree to that, and I do make passive AB and Bypass Box for about that price myself and I include shipping for North America in my price.

My uniqueness is in the finish which is to the colour theme chosen by the customer, and he/she also gets to decide the jacks and switch layout so it fits the ergonomics of his/her pedalboard. I also offer them in the 1590 B or BB format. So making these in batches is out of the question as there's no locked in standard.

So for that I think each has its place, mine are custom projects on a one on one basis.

Confessed Pickaholic!

[This message was edited by Glorbz on July 23, 2003 at 08:06 PM.]

Hi Jason,
We are quickly working on a parallel looper Apartment that allows people to live their lives over and over again, while truly bypassing the bad moments...the Redundtortion!

My jokes are obvious, but only because of lack of taste and quality.

OK for those who care here is a page full of Barber drilling fixture madness. These images could be a little large so take you time.

click here for more pics!
"

Nice ones Dave. I can appreciate how that makes things easier and constant while assuring a better QC

Confessed Pickaholic!

David, how about the Landlord Dynamic Overdrive? You could charge $60 per month.