Hey, anything that gets Bjorn back telling great stories is cool by me, although (to be honest) I didn't totally understand the post. No one here made any assertion at all about the lack of quality about any of his pedals. In fact, just the opposite. Everyone agrees that Bjorn makes a superior product. His post defends the quality of his work which no one here doubts. The question is whether or not a pedal at that price point should be un-serviceable. Obviously its not totally unserviceable as the main components that go down in ANY pedal ARE serviceable. But that is true of well built amps and guitars and I don't know that any builder who makes $350+ pedals (more than double the cost of Guitar Center mass produced pedals) would buy an amp that is also comparably expensive that only allowed you to service the tubes and plugs (because they are most likely the "problem") and gooped the rest of the components (so that an incompetent tech can't make a mistake servicing it???). I doubt it very much.

It seems to me the main argument for gooping is protection of a circuit's secrets. Fair enough and I certainly don't make any argument against a builder doing such a thing if they choose. BUT, you can't have it all your way. I'm not the only person I know who simply won't buy a pedal that is not serviceable in some way and know many more people who at least try not to if they can help it.

So a builder has to choose between gooping and loosing some potential customers and not-gooping and taking the risk someone can steal the "secret recipe". I for one don't know of any builders who had something "special" and lost their businesses over loosing secrets, but I know plenty who promise and don't deliver, slip quality control or simply go nuts because they can't keep up with orders.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I'm new to the discussion and not familiar with Bjorn or his goop-defending post (which thread are we talking about?), but as a marginally competent player (on a good day) and enthusiastic buyer of just about any pedal that's rumored to sound good, I can state categorically that goop is not an issue for me. Goop, don't goop, I don't care. Make me a pedal that sounds good, don't charge more than it's reasonably worth, and if it breaks and I send it back to you fix it in a timely manner and don't give me a lot of guff about it (as in, hold the Fuller-tude). But that's me--I'm about as likely to work on my own pedals as I am to slide down the chimney on Christmas eve.

My Klon and Eternity (the handwired one) are gooped, but on the other hand my Mo'D and Dynamic Overdrive aren't and John Landgraff catches a lot grief for some reason. I guess cause they sell for a lot of money, but he can't make them fast enough even at his price. How dare he foist his pedals on a naive and unsuspecting musicians community.

I guess the reason I refuse to buy any gooped pedals is because they are either un-serviceable or difficult to service enough that very good amp/pedal techs won't touch them. You're totally at the mercy of the customer support offered by the original builder--if they still make pedals, or have people who can fix them locally or at least in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Groff:
I guess the reason I refuse to buy any gooped pedals is because...you're totally at the mercy of the customer support offered by the original builder...

Reasonable enough. I get it. Goop bad.

not an issue for me...I see a lot of Klons on a lot of pbs...my Tubeless OD is also gooped and I've had others and will continue to buy pedals based on how they sound and whether I need or want that sound in my arsenal...

if it breaks I'll worry about it then...goop does not make it unserviceable...just more difficult as you have to ungoop it to fix if the need should arise...

personally I think too much is made of this non-issue...

Chow,
Seegs

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Seegs,

Gooped pedals can still be ungooped and people can still find out what the circuitry in a boutique pedal is.. But what then IS the answer? Copyright infringement in the pedal world is impossible to find out about, coded locks with self-destruct mode maybe?

The reality is that if someone badly wants to dissect your (proprietary) circuit, goop or not, they can. It will be possibly quite a hassle but nonetheless should they so wish to they can.

Also the fact that we are living in the age of the Internet means that it takes only one competent pedal hacker to dissect your design and it is pretty much available to anyone with the interest to look for it. In fact the only way to keep your design safe would be to not sell any pedals at all.

Also, it seems that the business of non-gooping pedal builders does not seem to have been affected by their non-gooping. Or has it? I don't know. If it has I think we would all be interested in hearing.

It is also a fact that many newer pedals are based on older technologies. From what I understand the Fuzz Factory for example finds its origins in the design of a germanium Fuzz Face. So in a lot of cases the idea of a completely proprietary pedal design is a tough one to argue.

It is also the case the many of our most respected and beloved builders started by reverse engineering other older pedals. I am quite sure that many of these said builders (some of whom resort to gooping)would have been the ones to go to the trouble of degooping if the pedals and circuits they learned their trade from had been gooped.

I can say that personally, as someone who has built a few pedal kits, the notion that if your circuits were readily visible people would start abandoning your products to build their own or that rival builders would poach your designs seems to be a slightly paranoid one. The reality is most people are either a. not interested in b. don't have the time to, and/or c. don't have the technical know-how or inclination or whatever to go to that kind of trouble. From my experiences of building those kits, I learned how to solder and I found it an enjoyable pastime, but taking into account the amount of time I spent doing it (and what I would have earned if I had spend that time working even a minimum wage job), I am under no impression that there is either a. massive savings to be made from building your own pedals or that b. there is a fortune to be made from building pedals commercially. This phenomenon can be seen in the numbers of builders that don't manage to stay afloat.

From the point of view as a consumer living in Europe I find goop to be slightly off putting. I mean, I pay say €150 for a pedal. Should it break at any stage the cost of return postage alone to the States (ignoring the cost of the actual repair) would probably work out at around €40. So in the end I might end up paying half the original cost of the pedal to get it repaired. The repair might be something as simple as replacing a resistor or capacitor, for which you wouldn't have to be a technical genius. Regardless it will cost you with gooping.

Furthermore, many pedal-building enterprises are essentially one man/woman shows and should they go out of business for whatever reason the consumer is left with a unit which will be incredibly difficult to service/get serviced.

quote:

Originally posted by Seziertisch:
The reality is that if someone badly wants to dissect your (proprietary) circuit, goop or not, they can.

I can say that personally, as someone who has built a few pedal kits, the notion that if your circuits were readily visible people would start abandoning your products to build their own or that rival builders would poach your designs seems to be a slightly paranoid one. The reality is most people are either a. not interested in b. don't have the time to, and/or c. don't have the technical know-how or inclination or whatever to go to that kind of trouble.

From the point of view as a consumer living in Europe I find goop to be slightly off putting. I mean, I pay say €150 for a pedal. Should it break at any stage the cost of return postage alone to the States (ignoring the cost of the actual repair) would probably work out at around €40. So in the end I might end up paying half the original cost of the pedal to get it repaired. The repair might be something as simple as replacing a resistor or capacitor, for which you wouldn't have to be a technical genius. Regardless it will cost you with gooping.

This is pretty much my position. The costs are even much worse if the builder is in Europe and the dollar remains weak. I imagine its not an issue for some, especially if playing is really just a hobby and collecting is a big part of it, but if you play enough gigs, you need serviceable gear. That's why many true road-dog players play mass produced stuff. Its cheap, repaceable anywhere, and easily fixed. Slowly you're seeing these guys switch to boutique, but the sound is only part of it. That many boutique builders (Fulltone, Sweet, DAM, etc.) are making better built-better sounding versions of pedals they already like, its a no-brainer to switch.

I'll give the best builders the benefit of the doubt and admit they may be hiding secret components or circuits, but many gooped pedals are really just hiding that the emperor has no clothes. Anyway, if a circuit is truely unique and it is cheap enough to patent something that fits into that catagory, builders should sit up at night HOPING a big manufacturer steals the design. They'll retire on the lawsuit.

I find it especially paranoid from builders who can't even keep up with orders anyway and couldn't possibly sell more pedals even if they wanted to. Maybe I'm wrong, but the only thing truely rare out there is top germ transistors. Everything else is available, even if it takes more quality control to source because of badly made cheap Chinese junk out in the market.

It may be a non issue to some, and I respect that, but to some of us it is simply the reason we won't buy a pedal. I think builders should at least know there is a debate going on and not just assume NO ONE cares, even if its not enough to make them stop gooping.

Some builders goop to protect their pedals from being cloned.Some goop to protect them from being exposed for being frauds.There are so many backyard guys selling pedal these days that I can't begin to keep track.How many times have I seen a guy build his 1st few pedals from a layout and then a month later start his new pedal business, from another guys layout )

There are some very talented builders out there.I'm just a pedal building newbie who enjoys building a pedal or two.I'm not going to run out and start a business.If I did you can bet I would never ever goop my pedal.I personally just don't get it.JMHO

I never actually thought about goop or no goop when it comes to pedals. If my amp or guitar breaks down I want them fixed in no time if I really need them. But I have two or three setups that works pretty good.

When it comes to buying pedals from US I´m pretty sure it´s less expensive for me to send them over there and back and get them fixed than paying a swedish tech to fix it for me. It´s expensive here and we pay a lot of tax (which I don´t mind at all).

If one OD breaks down I have like 4-6 other OD:s that I like. I have a few delays, I have a couple of compressors, etc etc. I don´t have one pedal that I rely on and can´t live without even though I rather not go anywhere without my Honey Bee. ;-)

So for me, living in Sweden, it doesn´t really matter. If I want boutique pedals most of them comes from US. I´m fucked either way if they stop working.

Maybe the builders should put up on their web site in which states/countries they have techs so we all know that we can get them fixed pretty fast if something happens. Could that be a good advice to the builders? Maybe they all should follow Bjorns example and set up a system for for how the service should be handled.

IMHO, gooping has proliferated because of the way the market is driven. The really big companies use famous endorsers and magazine ads to push their products whereas boutique builders rely (for the most part) on "word-of-mouth" (IOW, internet forum hype) to generate sales. There really aren't nearly as many busy major label session/touring guys participating on the forums compared to hobyists, and gooping is not really an issue to a hobyist or collector because they will most likely not use the pedal enough to test its durability. This leaves working musicians with a kind of interesting choice:

(A) buy mass produced stuff that's cheap and easy to get, fix and replace; or
(B) buy better quality boutique gear that isn't gooped and available in some kind of national distribution network; or
(C) take your chances with nearly unserviceable gooped pedals wherever you get them from.

The problem is exacerbated by the issue of cost. Its one thing for an overdrive or boost to cost $150-$175, its quite another if we're talking about $350-$500. You have to have a lot of scratch laying around to have a backup of a $375 overdrive pedal. Now, you might think "well, at least its built better and less likely to go down, so I'll splurge on one and take my chances", but if its gooped and has issues, you've got problems in the least getting it fixed (as stated in earlier posts).

I've stated this before and it may be worth repeating: Selling to busy working touring musicians may be the last priority of a boutique builder (fair enough). Many boutique builders earn by the very internet hype gooping contributes to, however I'm hoping that a few of the truly high end builders out there will recognize that they may get to "have their cake and eat it to" because no small builder could muscle in on their established reputations.

What doesn't fly in my book is claiming that the pedals never break parts under the goop, or the goop is necessary to keep out incompetent techs, or that its necessary for the pedal mechanically. If that were the case Mike Fuller would goop the most expensive new "pedal" out there: the TTE (or anything else for that matter) as would amp builders and guitar builders.

For something to go from being a non-issue to an issue, it has to screw up on me and become, well, an issue. I understand the beefs about the goop, but I've owned several gooped peds for years and have personally had no probs, but that could change tomorrow. Similarly, I know several techs that won't work on PCB amps anymore, and while I understand the reasoning, it hasn't stopped me from gigging really good sounding PCB amps over the last twenty years or so, with none of the 'nightmare' scenarios that I've read about as associated with such amps.

Working musicians are working musicians... if they're gigging several times a week, the concerns as to gear remain a thing whether the performer is working Madison Square Garden or Wagon Willie's Western Saloon in Bumfuck, Alabama.

I see quite a few pedalboards belonging to regionally and nationally successful acts. Sometimes, it's an old grey BOSS plastic pedalboard with nothing but BOSS peds and a Fender reissue '65 Deluxe Reverb PCB amp (Johnny Spampinato w/ NRBQ). More often than not, the vast majority of working players' (at a variety of levels) boards that I personally see contain some combination of boutique/expensive and garden variety stomps.

I sense your point of view Richard.
Imagine how many guitar enthusiasts(like myself) that happen to live outside the US. or Europe for that matter would feel if we purchase an expensive pedal and when it arrives to our homes we open its guts and find out "damn the bitch is goop".

MY POINT IS: if a pedal builder is socially responsible enough, AT LEAST INFORM THE CONSUMERS THAT HIS PRODUCT COMES "GOOP" oR THAT it comes "goop free".. so we have all the facts right.


Last I believe a good business does not flourishes based upon secrets.. secrets and conspiracies seem like a "mystery novel or mafia logo theme". Enduring enterprises survive on costumer support, innovation-quality and not hiding info from the public IMHO.

I for one stay away from "goop" and love to stare at the "naked exposed" inner parts.. of my pedals.. and I am not remotely interested in building anything.. million other players just wanna rock with our pedals.

I could somehow understand it if gooping actually meant that the secrets of your circuit were safe.

If someone is out to copy your design and is in it to make money from it, they are most certainly not going to let the goop stop them. It might slow them down a bit but where there is a will there is a way.

The only one to really suffer is the non pedal-hacker player who just wants a product which is easy to maintain/and or repair should anything go wrong. I mean this is one of the main attractions of a point-to-point wired amp that unlike pcb it can be easily and quickly repaired using mostly components that are readily enough available.

quote:

Originally posted by Corleone:
For something to go from being a non-issue to an issue, it has to screw up on me and become, well, an issue.

One day a collector, gigging player or casual player will have a piece long enough to be considered a vintage piece. One day it will have issues that require repair. The Echoplex has now out lived Mike Battle, RIP, and yet I am working on one of his remarkable inventions as we speak.

I have been playing for so long now that I can't help but think 20+ years down the road as it comes quicker than one may think.

Regards,
George

quote:

Originally posted by Corleone:
For something to go from being a non-issue to an issue, it has to screw up on me and become, well, an issue. I understand the beefs about the goop, but I've owned several gooped peds for years and have personally had no probs, but that could change tomorrow. Similarly, I know several techs that won't work on PCB amps anymore, and while I understand the reasoning, it hasn't stopped me from gigging really good sounding PCB amps over the last twenty years or so, with none of the 'nightmare' scenarios that I've read about as associated with such amps.

Working musicians are working musicians... if they're gigging several times a week, the concerns as to gear remain a thing whether the performer is working Madison Square Garden or Wagon Willie's Western Saloon in Bumfuck, Alabama.

I see quite a few pedalboards belonging to regionally and nationally successful acts. Sometimes, it's an old grey BOSS plastic pedalboard with nothing but BOSS peds and a Fender reissue '65 Deluxe Reverb PCB amp (Johnny Spampinato w/ NRBQ). More often than not, the vast majority of working players' (at a variety of levels) boards that I personally see contain some combination of boutique/expensive and garden variety stomps.

I agree totally, especially the part of "working musician" being defined by playing and it not mattering if you're in some bar in the middle of no where or MSG. I guess my "issue" is that the "community" (here and elsewhere) is not making it a bigger issue (which is why I thought to bring it up). I don't know any good guitar tech that doesn't cringe at the site of a gooped pedal when they're going on tour and a number of musicians (like myself) that simply won't buy gooped pedals no matter what they sound like (I have great alternatives that aren't gooped, obviously). As time goes on nearly every pedal needs servicing in some way. Maybe not in a year or two, but once you get to 10+, especially with resale, they go down in some what and need fixing. It seems strange to me that builders don't want to participate in the long term dialogue we have about pedals. Part of the "magic" is that rare and long discontinued models see current recordings, etc. and gather a whole new life. I suspect that it doesn't matter and is just a "crank up the internet hype and give me the money now--who cares about the future" kind of attitute (no surprise in the current culture...). Its just a trend, I guess.

I really appreciate the dialogue so far, but I'm still hoping some builders for and against will chime in and give their perspective. The internet enabled garage boutique pedal market continues to be really interesting tonally and culturally, I just wish this issue were debated more so that more great pedals won't be built with goop.

Personally, I believe guitar tone is a bit like high French cooking. There aren't really any secrets or complexities to the recipies, but the best ingredients and incredible technique in the hands of master chefs create results that kitchen hacks can't come close to. Taste, a sense of ballance, a desire for greatness all lead somewhere by themselves. Its also why great chefs are willing to show off what they do. They KNOW 98% of the people out there can't do it, and the world is big enough to include the extra 2% who can. Its called legacy.

Good thing I wasn't a member of the debate team in high school, as I'd have failed miserably! Richard and George, your points are well taken.

Again, I can only relate as to how all of this figures into my tiny little world over the last thirty years or so of regular gigging. I've not yet been bitten by the goop, but that's not to say it won't happen tomorrow.

A more pragmatic comparison for the likes of me would be PTP (vintage/boutique) amps as compared to PCB (modern/mass-produced) amps; quite frankly, my experience has been six of one, half dozen or the other. PCB amps that I've bought for 500-600 bucks that have served me well for fifteen years with minimal maintenance - what do I care if *most* techs won't "service" them? I know one guy that will, and he's the same guy that'll take on all the crazy instrument modifications that I can dream up, that 'proper' luthiers won't touch. On the other hand, I've been through (and still have) quite a few drool-worthy amps. To get a "vintage" amp in top working order, depending on the model, I'm looking at a cap job and general trouble shooting as to cold solder joints and whatnot, a speaker or speakers that is/are toast (is a flat tire "vintage"?), and often an antiquated and inefficient system of heat dispersion. Because I'm not a tinkerer at heart, I'm usually looking at a significant outlay of bucks to get "repairman-approved" items up to snuff. Just because a 'system' is of a (real or theoretically real) structurally sound design, does not mean that said system will not nickel and dime me to death over the same amount of time as will system of the opposite persuasion.

Which brings me to the real crux of my side of the debate. I paid good money for several pairs of underwear twenty years ago, and for God's sakes, there's holes in them! Also, I pay good money daily for digital telephone service, digital television reception, and digital computer interface, and it sucks eggs on a daily basis! I have never ONCE felt like that I've gotten my money's worth, as to predictable and consistent performance, from the digital medium, ever.

quote:

Originally posted by Corleone:
A more pragmatic comparison for the likes of me would be PTP (vintage/boutique) amps as compared to PCB (modern/mass-produced) amps; quite frankly, my experience has been six of one, half dozen or the other. PCB amps that I've bought for 500-600 bucks that have served me well for fifteen years with minimal maintenance - what do I care if *most* techs won't "service" them?

Great point. If you get plenty of juice out of a $500 amp and can save the other $1500, it might be a no brainer. But what if the PCB amp cost the same or even more? Ok, you found a guy in town who is willing to fix the amp, but if you go out for a few weeks, you won't know who that guy is where you are that night (unless that guy is your tech). That's what we're talking about with gooped pedals (for the most part). If a Fulltone pedal cost $160 and the gooped pedal was $40 or $50 bucks, there is no argument. However, many of the high end gooped pedals are going for $350 and up, more than twice the cost. That's what bothers me. Not the cost, but the addition of unserviceable at that much greater price point.

I think it's Pritchard that says his solid state amps sound better than anything else. I've not played them.

If I'm out on the gig and something fails me on the spot, it doesn't matter who stands behind what, it's about fixing or replacing something quickly. As for gooped peds, one of my Fulltones had a hiccup, and Mike Fuller "fixed" it before I could yawn, at no charge to myself, before I needed it for my next gig.

The reason that I try to maintain an old school business relationship with vendors whose products that I'll use and endorse is because they'll work with me. Voodoo Lab, Maxon, Prescription Electronics, Bill Finnegan, Ed Rembold, George L's, Mike Fuller, as well as some of the "majors". These guys get my business because they're willing to hear me, and because I never am made to feel like I'm asking for something that I've not paid for. None of my BJFE "gooped" peds have failed me thusfar, but in the event that they will (sure they will, they're mechanical devices) I can't imagine that a sincere query to Bjorn would leave me feeling hung out to dry for any length of time.

It doesn't matter what I use, I've got B-teamers ready to go. I'm a business staff of one, usually, meaning that the tools I call upon are the ones that make me feel reasonably confident.