hi
im new here. this is my 1st post. being that i suck with computers im a little nervous.

however i am trying to gather as much info in hopes to find a delay unit that is right for me.

right now i have a simple line6 dl4. but i cant get enough delay so im selling it off.

im looking at:
toneczar- echo czar
dls echo tap
sib echo drive
hk replex
and a bunch of others

any info/advice is welcome..in particular i would love info/opinions on the echo czar

Hi Max

Welcome. First off, this would probably get more answers from the Guitar. Amps and Pedals part of the Forum. This is the mods and repairs section.

In any case, I saw the title and am a delay freak, so here I am.

What do you want in a delay that you can't get in the DL4? What kind of rig do you use? What kind of music do you play?

Now - The EchoCzar is new, expensive and I haven't heard from anybody who has actually played ne, It has just about every option you could put on an analog delay. It would seem to be especially good for pitch changes and more complex delay applications and transitions. Two presets. Looks cool. Has a lot of delay time for an analog delay, but not much compared to just about any digital delay. $625!!!

DLS Echo Tap - I have the DLS Chorus~Vibe and it is a beauty. The ET has up to 3 seconds of delay, tap tempo, 2 presets, tone control, stereo ins and outs and True Bypass. Very good solid delay with almost all the most popular options. No modulated delays. Good price too. $290.

SIB Echo Drive - the red one (digital) has very good tone and a tube based signal path. Up to 1.3 seconds of delay. No bells and whistles, just good delay tone. $250. The blue one (analog) is also sweet but rare and very pricey.

The H&K Replex is another tube based delay with great tones, The reverb setting is not all that. The delay does a good multi-head tape echo simulation. $425.

Of these, I think the DLS is the winner. But you might be wanting a looper or modulation or an fx loop or ... There are bunches more,let me know more about what you're looking for.

Check out the Blackbox Quicksilver, Manecolooper, T Rex Replica, Boss DD20, Boss RC20, and then there are the older discontinued ones and tape echo and ...

BMoreTele has given you a good start.

The toneczar, quicksilver, and echotap interest me most.

The blackbox quicksilver has a loop so you can further process your repeats (on and on and on). I think the moog mf-104 (expensive but will or *should* hold its value well) does as well.

I believe both allow expression pedals to allow you to play with the delay time (either through an expression pedal or something like the LFOs on the moog cp251) - this can lead to some very crazy phase/chorus/flange type effects. The quicksilver also gives you some wow/flutter type settings.

Maxon AD900 is another one to look at.

What's that Guyatone tube delay called? That might be something to look at as well.

PS - for future's sake you might want to post this type of question in the "Guitars, Amps & Pedals" forum.

Oh, and the search feature is working again so you should be able to find tons of stuff on all the items mentioned above.

A little more detail on what you're looking for would help - what do you like about the DL4? What don't you like? What type of music do you play? What guitarist's delay sound do you like? That type of info will help point you down the right path.

I hear the T Rex Replica is a great unit and I own the DLS Tap Echo and it is a very nice sounding unit as well. These are great for what I need but, I use delays mostly for slap back stuff.

Are you thinking about looping your rhythms and is that why the DL4 doesn't have enough time for you?

How much time do you need?

hey thanks for the info. very gracious indeed. ill keep a heads up on where to post.

im not really into anything unusual:radiohead,jeff buckley, beatles, beach boys, wilco(new album), flaming lips(new stuff) my bloody valentine, nick drake...

mostly what im after in a delay is tube and tape echo sounds. i like the wash an wurble of those units. just like the next guy. the fulltone unit would be ideal for me but outta my price range.

so mainly on the dl4 i use the tube an tape,space echo sounds. a little bit of low res delay(grungy) and the memoryman(chorus/delay) reverse too. what i dont like about the dl4 is its lacks tonal complexity and it's damage prone(they break easy) i like the variety.

my rig includes 80s jerry donahue tele(swap for tex special tele pickups) voxac30(blue alnicos), a 58 fender harvard, auble systems 10 class A el84 amp
pedal board includes tu2 , eh blackfinger comp, morley channel switch, analogman ts9 sliver, zvex super duper, line6 dl4

pretty simple.

not really looking for super long delay or loop. just a bread an butter delay. i would love just one (bread and butter) tube/tape delay and a few other delays to change things up a bit when needed. im thinking my new delay rig might look like; bread an butter delay, guyatone ad3, ibanez em5(from what i hear so cheap and trashy sounding but warm like analog)

im still a novice. ive only ever owned the line6dl4 w/tap how beneficial is tap? would i miss it? is the hk replex tap?

also gblekas whats the specific pros on the dls? can you get great tube/ tape echo sounds with it? i dont really do slap back stuff. is slap back echo more of a country thing? i always hear about slap back echo..forgive me im ignorant.. what does that mean?

my friend has the a bunch of delays he runs delays into delays into delays. analog maxon, line6 , guyatone ad3. whats the pros of having delays into delays?

any thoughts?

harvard is my safety

Everybody's looking for great tube/tape echo sounds without the cost or maintenance issues of the real thing.

That's why analog delay pedals were invented. But they're not quite the same. So folks came up with digital delays, and they're not quite right either.

To cover the range of sounds you like from the DL4, you would need several delays or the Boss DD20. It goes head to head with the DL4 and seems to have less maintenance problems and a little better tone. No sweep echo preset, but a very good tone control, 5 presets, stereo ins and outs, and a digital readout of delay time in milliseconds or beats per minute.

The EM5 is cool, but the DE7 is supposed to be a very similar design with longer delay and very nice self-oscillation capabilities. The Guyatone MD3 is a very clean delay.

Tap - two kinds. Tap tempo, you tap in rhythm on a button or footpedal and the delay time is set on the fly. Cool, I don't use it. Your tempo will wander during a song anyway. Go with the flow. Others on this and other forums consider tap tempo to be a necessity. Good men differ.

The other tap - multi-tapped echo. On some tape echos there are multiple playback heads. You can use them to get syncopated double or triple beats to your delays. Other than the big expensive fragile tape echo units, your options would include the DL4 and DD20, the H&K Replex, the Carl Martin DeLayla, or the Korg 301dl Dynamic Echo. It's a nice effect.

As to multiple delays - I currently run three. An Arion SAD-1 analog (for warm tone and delays from slapback to runaway self-oscillation), a Digitech PDS20/20 (digital delay plus modulated delay and a loop up to about 12 seconds), and the Maneco Nanolooper 32 (lots of stuff including reverse, lo fi, pitch shifting and up to 32 seconds of delay/looping). Once I ran five analog delays in a row - very cool, but not too predictable. (Multiple delays is another way to get tapped echo.)

Slapback = one repeat that acts as a syncopated rhythm. Often found in rockabilly music, anywhere from 50 to 100 ms, depends on your tempo. Check out Danny Gatton, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Carl Perkins, Brian Setzer.

Go to your local MegaMusicStore and try a DD20. If it's not what you're looking for, start saving your pennies. The quest for the perfect delay is an expensive ride.

I would have to put in a vote for a Maxon AD-900. I am very happy with mine and it offers what I think is the best tube/tape delay sound without nearly the cost, maintenance and issues associated with a tube/tape delay. They are a little pricy at around $450, but should serve your needs for a very long time or at least until you decide to spring for a real tube/tape delay at around $1000 + upkeep. I wouldn't recomend a tube/tape for a 1st or only delay but they are amazing in the studio.

I used to own a TC 2290 with all the bells and whistles but don't miss it for a minute or that super clean (and to my ears sterile) sound. I like the Maxon's warm almost chorus-y sound that reminds me of the real thing.

Good luck and welcome to the board...

AD900's are going for $330 BIN on Ebay. Not that that's cheap.

quote:

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Originally posted by BmoreTele:
AD900's are going for $330 BIN on Ebay. Not that that's cheap.

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Damn, I paid a little more for mine, but it NIB and I've long ago forgotten about the $100.

One thing to consider regarding the AD900 is it's 12V so if you've got a board you'll need something like a juice box or a dedicated plug for it (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

thanks for the generous info bmoretele and richard. ill keep you posted on my progress.

quote:

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Originally posted by ceterisparibus:
One thing to consider regarding the AD900 is it's 12V so if you've got a board you'll need something like a juice box or a dedicated plug for it (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

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Yes, that's right. The wall wart has a fairly long cable and reaches as far as the power cord to my PPII, so they run to the same power strip.

hey jeffrey (maxfisch)... finally found your posting. didn't know it was on this forum, lol.

i wish you the best in your search, my friend. you have come to the right place. good to see you here.

hey guys
a boss dd20 is on its way..a gift for my bday. also, im still considering buying on my own the dls echotap or waiting for the analog man delay.
thanks,
max

Hi, all
I have the DD20 and also the DLS Echo-Tap.
Nutshell review:
DLS
Pro: the DLS is in another league sonically.
Con: It's a little conservative in implementation and in terms of delay sounds available.

Boss
Pro: the DD20 is useful as a hyper-versatile "effect" type delay. very well laid out, interesting algorithms.
Con: It's absolutely artificial sounding by comparison, I'll probably sell mine.

The DLS is a quality box-
I chose mine after demoing it side by side againse a digital echodrive, a T-rex and a maxon analog pedal at a great guitar store in NYC.
A lot has been said about how the DLS preserves tone, It seemed it would be useful to elaborate. The construction of the piece is such that your dry signal *stays analog* Means no A/D and D/A conversion for your dry signal; your analog sound is mixed internally with the digital delays. This makes a massive difference in playability, I have to say. The low end, texture, dynamics- the "feel" of your instrument translate accurately enough to spoil you for lower- fi FX.

By comparison, the DD-20's output sounds bright, compressed and lacking in focus and detail. It's not a "bad" sound, and it sounds much better than a Line 6, for example. but unless you use an effects loop, the DD20 is going to change the response of your instrument. That said, the delay algorithms are very cool, lots of variety. The box is also really well laid out.


The DLS has some quirks. The A output is darker sounding than the B output. Little- known situation there. It's kind of useful, but I wish there were more documentation about this. There's also some kind of boost going on; I think I'm going to need to open it up and adjust the pots- the boost is fine, but I've run into headroom issues when using other kinds of inputs (mic pres and the like)
The DLS is designed for tone, rather than for fun/flexibility- if you're looking to hook up cool feedback FX, dubby stuff, divebombs, anything kind of wacky and irresponsible, unfortunately you won't find it here- it really doesn't approach feeding back at all, no matter how you push it. I'm wondering if there's a mod for this.
Likewise, the personality of the delay itself is kind of conservative. After taking this out on the road and doing some tracking at home, I feel the digital side of the unit needs more character. To my ears, the delays don't stack up against the complexity of the dry sound. the pedal seems to want to be used quietly and responsibly, rather than in an upfront freak-of the week kind of way. I think they could have pushed the envelope quite a bit further, particularly in designing the filter section of the delay.

I'm a delay nut and a multi-instrumentalist. Probably the only thing that's really gonna work for me in the end as far as sound and flexibility is a nice tape delay. I'm hoping to get my hands on a Hiwatt or a tube plex now- I'd consider doing some kind of a trade if anyone's interested. I'm also very interested to get some more info on the Hiwatt; if anyone has one and give me an idea of how it's been holding up, I;d be happy to hear from you.
peace now!
Josh Roseman
www.joshroseman.com

quote:

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first posted by Josh R
Hi, all
I have the DD20 and also the DLS Echo-Tap.
Nutshell review:
DLS
Pro: the DLS is in another league sonically.
Con: It's a little conservative in implementation and in terms of delay sounds available.

Boss
Pro: the DD20 is useful as a hyper-versatile "effect" type delay. very well laid out, interesting algorithms.
Con: It's absolutely artificial sounding by comparison, I'll probably sell mine.

The DLS is a quality box-
I chose mine after demoing it side by side againse a digital echodrive, a T-rex and a maxon analog pedal at a great guitar store in NYC.
A lot has been said about how the DLS preserves tone, It seemed it would be useful to elaborate. The construction of the piece is such that your dry signal *stays analog* Means no A/D and D/A conversion for your dry signal; your analog sound is mixed internally with the digital delays. This makes a massive difference in playability, I have to say. The low end, texture, dynamics- the "feel" of your instrument translate accurately enough to spoil you for lower- fi FX.

By comparison, the DD-20's output sounds bright, compressed and lacking in focus and detail. It's not a "bad" sound, and it sounds much better than a Line 6, for example. but unless you use an effects loop, the DD20 is going to change the response of your instrument. That said, the delay algorithms are very cool, lots of variety. The box is also really well laid out.


The DLS has some quirks. The A output is darker sounding than the B output. Little- known situation there. It's kind of useful, but I wish there were more documentation about this. There's also some kind of boost going on; I think I'm going to need to open it up and adjust the pots- the boost is fine, but I've run into headroom issues when using other kinds of inputs (mic pres and the like)
The DLS is designed for tone, rather than for fun/flexibility- if you're looking to hook up cool feedback FX, dubby stuff, divebombs, anything kind of wacky and irresponsible, unfortunately you won't find it here- it really doesn't approach feeding back at all, no matter how you push it. I'm wondering if there's a mod for this.
Likewise, the personality of the delay itself is kind of conservative. After taking this out on the road and doing some tracking at home, I feel the digital side of the unit needs more character. To my ears, the delays don't stack up against the complexity of the dry sound. the pedal seems to want to be used quietly and responsibly, rather than in an upfront freak-of the week kind of way. I think they could have pushed the envelope quite a bit further, particularly in designing the filter section of the delay.

I'm a delay nut and a multi-instrumentalist. Probably the only thing that's really gonna work for me in the end as far as sound and flexibility is a nice tape delay. I'm hoping to get my hands on a Hiwatt or a tube plex now- I'd consider doing some kind of a trade if anyone's interested. I'm also very interested to get some more info on the Hiwatt; if anyone has one and give me an idea of how it's been holding up, I;d be happy to hear from you.
peace now!
Josh Roseman
www.joshroseman.com

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hi Josh R
first off i just wanted to say welcome to the forum. thanks for the very articulate break down of the DD20/DLS echotap.

i still have yet to receive my DD20 or have extra change to purchase the DLS. so for right now im still stuck with my broken line6 DL4

off topic a bit..i noticed that it appears you play trombone. i grew up playing jazz trombone and come from a long line of trombonists. in 1996 i was even thinking about attending the university of north texas as an undergrad/jazz studies major.

small world.

peace indeed,
max

quote:

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Originally posted by Josh R:
The construction of the piece is such that your dry signal *stays analog* Means no A/D and D/A conversion for your dry signal; your analog sound is mixed internally with the digital delays.

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Interesting. I've always heard that the DL4 subjects your dry signal to an ADDA conversion, but surely most digital delays can't work this way, because the sample quality is too poor.

Do you know which delays convert the dry signal and blend it back in digitally with the delays, and which ones maintain an analog signal path?

Does the echo tao fade out when turned off, or just stop all at once...

it is digital right?