Okay, I'm expereimenting with different modes and I'm running into some problems. I just need some assurance from someone that I'm doing this correctly.
I practice diferent modes over some simple chords in the key of C (chords are C, Am, F, G).
The Ionian and Aeolian modes make sense to me because they're pretty much out of the C Major scale.
Now, when I play the mixolydian scale over these chords, it sounds a little strange (although it does "kind of" fit). If I played 7th chords with this mode, would that tie the mode in a little better?
When I play the dorian mode over these chords (C, Am, F, G), it doesn't sound right at all. Am I doing something wrong? Should I be playing a different chord progression for the dorian mode? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

If playing over chords from a harmonized C major scale (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bm7b5), the only mode that will work (over all of those chords) in the key of C is Ionian.

Now here's where it get's a little cornfusing: You can play over the same chords in D Dorian (NOT Dorian in the Key of C), E Phrygian (Not C Phrygian), F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian.

It won't take you too long to realise that that's not exactly crucial stuff to know (try it out for yourself to see why).
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A more useful use of modes(there are others):

Where to play a C Dorian [C D Eb F G A Bb C]scale (modes are really just diatonic scales)? Play it over the harmonized version of the C Dorian scale:
Cmin, Dmin, Eb, F, Gmin, Amin7b5, and Bb

Choose a simple progression from among those chords and C Dorian leads will work beautifully.

Try Cmin-F-Gmin7
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Similarly, you can play a C Mixolydian lead over a chord progression bassed on the harmonized C Mixolydian Scale. A common one would be C - F - Bb.

I'd avoid 7ths at this begining stage as they will complicate the issue - that's the next topic to tackle.

Learn how to harmonize any scale, then start writing them out for yourself to really learn it (much more effective than just reading). You can then play that mode or scale over those chords.

[This message has been edited by dmt (edited 04-17-2002).]

You have to change the root of the mode you're using if you're going to stick to the same chord progression . Example : C - Am - F - G . Obviously , C Ionion , the major scale will work perfectly . Use Aeolian ( natural minor ) starting on A , use mixo-lydian starting on G and dorian starting on D . All of these notes are still in the key of C major but now you're starting tone and position on the fretboard has changed . Keep in mind that C is still " home " . You can get WAY more in depth than this of course but this is a good start .

Thanks dmt! That was very informative, and I think I understand it now. I was playing the following modes over the C harmonized major scale:

D Dorian , E Phrygian , F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian

Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going to use the D Dorian mode as an example (assuming that I'm still playing over chords in the C harmonized major scale).
The notes in the D major scale are D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#. But D Dorian would look like D,E,F,G,A,B,C And this would be D Dorian played over the C harmonized major scale, correct? So basically I'm finding out, that this is just the same as playing the C major scale, starting from a different note. Does E Phrygian , F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian also contain the exact notes of the C major scale?


As far as playing the C Dorian scale over the harmonized version of the C Dorian scale goes, this is what I noticed: C Dorian would like like C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb correct? This scale has two flats in it. Wouldn't this be the same thing as playing the Bb major scale?

Thanks for your help!!!

Thanks klasaine. I think I'm beginning to understand how this all works.

Another question though. Let's say that I'm playing the chords C, Am, F, and G, and I'm playing the C Ionian scale over it. I understand that changing the root would change the tonal center. But does each mode really have a different feel to it? Because it all kind of sounds the same whether I'm playing C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C or E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E. It all sounds happy ya know? Or maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe to get a different feel, I would have to play a different harmonized scale in the key of C like dmt mentioned?

Thanks for your help.

Looks like you're getting it.

"Wouldn't C Dorian be the same thing as playing the Bb major scale?"

Well, yes and no! Yes, the notes are the same. The two scales share the same notes. No, because a Dorian melody has quite a different feel than a major scale melody. It's about how the notes relate to each other and the underlaying harmony that create the unique feeling of each mode or scale.

As an analogy, I could give you seven different Scrabble letters, and using just those letters (any one repeated as many times as needed), you could create very different sentences. One sentence could be aggressive, another funny, another sad.

Now, I could give those same exact 7 letters to a French speaker, and again to a Dorian, oops, I mean Spanish speaker. They could even try to concoct messages with meanings similar to your original English sentences, but each mode, err - language, would have it's own unique sound and feeling - even though they used the exact same 7 letters! It wasn't the letters (notes) that were so important, as the context they were used in and the way they worked together.

Just play a mode over the appropriate harmony (chords), and you'll immediately see what I mean about each mode having it's own unique feeling.

You have to play it to really get it. Just thinking about won't get you home.

Enjoy!

quote:

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Originally posted by Anubis:
Thanks klasaine. I think I'm beginning to understand how this all works.

Another question though. Let's say that I'm playing the chords C, Am, F, and G, and I'm playing the C Ionian scale over it. I understand that changing the root would change the tonal center. But does each mode really have a different feel to it? Because it all kind of sounds the same whether I'm playing C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C or E,F,G,A,B,C,D,E. It all sounds happy ya know? Or maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe to get a different feel, I would have to play a different harmonized scale in the key of C like dmt mentioned?

Thanks for your help.

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In this case yes , because all the chords are " diatonic " to the key of C . Now , as an experiment ... record yourself jamming on a Cm7 vamp - solo over this using the F mixo-lydian mode (F,G,A,Bb,C,D,Eb). Yes , all the notes are still the same as in a C dorian mode but your perspective is a little different . Conversely , try C dorian over F7 chords . Play an F blues using C dorian over the F7 chord . You'll automatically get some really jazzy Pat Martino sounding lines . Extra credit : Ebmaj7#11 = C dorian

Oops! I just caught that I made a mistake above:

quote:

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the harmonized version of the C Dorian scale:
Cmin, Dmin, Eb, F, Gmin, Amin7b5, and Bbmin

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That should be:

Cmin Dmin Eb F Gmin Amin7b5 Bb (not Bbmin!).

I'll correct it with an edit above and sorry for any confusion - this stuff can be confusing enough as it is, sometimes! I guess the lesson is work stuff out for yourself - other people make honest mistakes, typos, pass on misconceptions, etc. The internet's a great source, but book writers have to convince a publisher of their credibility, and then they get editors and proofreaders to ensure that the final product doesn't have any mistakes.

quote:

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Originally posted by dmt:
Oops! I just caught that I made a mistake above:

That should be:

[b]Cmin Dmin Eb F Gmin Amin7b5 Bb (not Bbmin!).

I'll correct it with an edit above and sorry for any confusion - this stuff can be confusing enough as it is, sometimes! I guess the lesson is work stuff out for yourself - other people make honest mistakes, typos, pass on misconceptions, etc. The internet's a great source, but book writers have to convince a publisher of their credibility, and then they get editors and proofreaders to ensure that the final product doesn't have any mistakes.[/B]

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Okay, these are the chords that I chose to use of the harmonized version of the C Dorian scale: Cm, F, Bb, Gm
And when I solo over it using the C Dorian scale, it sounds great! But, it doesn't have really have a different feel to it. It still sounds all happy ya know? Should I try using a different chord arrangement? What other scales would work over this chord progression? Is the C Dorian scale the only scale that I can use to solo over this?

Thanks for your help!!!! I'm extremely pleased with the way my lessons are going. As soon as I get a reply from you, I go to my keyboard and program some chords into it, so that I can solo over it with my guitar.

Maybe you're just a happy guy?!!

Playing a C Dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) based melody over Cmin - F - Gm7 should certainly sound different than playing a C maj scale (C D E F G A B C) over a C - F - G progression! For starters, one is major and the other minor.

Now, try the Mixolydian:
Play a melody based on C mixolydian (C D E F G A Bb C) over a C - F - Bb progression. You should really hear the slightly wierd, spacey feel of this mode every time you hit the flatted 7th note of the scale (in this case Bb).

Each of these modes (and every other scale) has it's own sound and feel. To further understand/see and feel, play these modes in different keys. I'll do one for you:

E Mixolydian will be E F# G# A B C# D E. Play a melody using these notes over the same I IV bVII progression as above, but now in E, so: E - A - D. You should notice that Mixolydian feel, again, especially when you play the flatted 7th note of the scale (now D). Try it in some more keys.

Now try Dorian leads over Dorian progressions in some different keys.

Compare both of them to the sound and feel of major scale leads over major scale based progressions (you could stick to I-IV-V for now for simplicity's sake) in different keys.

Peace, Out.
-David

quote:

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Originally posted by dmt:
Maybe you're just a happy guy?!!

Playing a C Dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) based melody over Cmin - F - Gm7 should certainly sound different than playing a C maj scale (C D E F G A B C) over a C - F - G progression! For starters, one is major and the other minor.

Now, try the Mixolydian:
Play a melody based on C mixolydian (C D E F G A Bb C) over a C - F - Bb progression. You should really hear the slightly wierd, spacey feel of this mode every time you hit the flatted 7th note of the scale (in this case Bb).

Each of these modes (and every other scale) has it's own sound and feel. To further understand/see and feel, play these modes in different keys. I'll do one for you:

E Mixolydian will be E F# G# A B C# D E. Play a melody using these notes over the same I IV bVII progression as above, but now in E, so: E - A - D. You should notice that Mixolydian feel, again, especially when you play the flatted 7th note of the scale (now D). Try it in some more keys.

Now try Dorian leads over Dorian progressions in some different keys.

Compare both of them to the sound and feel of major scale leads over major scale based progressions (you could stick to I-IV-V for now for simplicity's sake) in different keys.

Peace, Out.
-David

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Holy smokes!!!!! This is so cool!!! You're absolutely right about each mode having a different feel. I think Mixolydian has gained most of my attention. I think it sounds the best. When I played E, A, D to practice in E Mixolydian. I programmed my keyboard to play a D7 instead of a regular D, and the scale sounds incredible. I can't thank you enough for explaining this mess to me. Now I'm well on my way to rock stardom. :-) Thanks again!!!

-Anubis

Hi there... i just grasped the "mode" angle myself and it is really easy to get confused with modes and keys....what i find helps is to learn
the shape of the major scale and then flatten or sharpen the shape in the different modes...notice you flatten the SHAPE not the note. What will prevent brain damage and poor leads is to remember
if you are in the key of A all modes of the key of A contain the same notes... there are NO exceptions to this rule or you will be changing the key! Hope this helps anyone who is learning about modes.