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<jackiethejokeman>
Posted
I thought triads where chorrds
 
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<MrHanky>
Posted
In a sense you are right. A chord is a group of notes played at the same time. 135=major.
1b35=minor. This is all based on a major scale as are all formulas for most scales, chords, triads, arpeggios, ect...

You can add extensions as you see fit, ex. 1357= Maj7
135b7=Dom7
1b35b7=Min7
1b3b5b7=Min7 flat 5/ Or Half Diminished.
1b3b5bb7=Diminshed, that is a double flat 7 which is actually the 6th scale tone.
Confused? Me too......MH
 
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<klasaine>
Posted
Piano players are best suited to play triads over chords , although what is probably mean't is triad over triad . for ex: D over C - a little tough on guitar but we can get very close .
C - 5th string , 3rd fret
E - 4th string , 2nd fret
A - 3rd string , 2nd fret
D - 2nd string , 3rd fret
F# - 1st string , 2nd fret

You could also call this a C6/9#11 , we're missing one note of the C triad , the G .
More commonly , guitarists play Triads over Bass notes , ex : C/D = C triad with D in the bass . The easiest way to play this is by barring strings 5 4 3 2 at the 5th fret . If you did the same thing at the 7th fret it would be D/E , at the 10th - F/G etc. I hope this helps , cheers .
 
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<jackiethejokeman>
Posted
Guys thanks that was the besst description i got so far and its free....Know to figure out how to use Triads. over a chords in scale patterns for solos!
 
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<klasaine>
Posted
Try this : D/C , use D mixo-lydian ; DEF#GABC . If you want think "modally" you're in the key of G major : GABCDEF# . Also , just go for B minor pentatonic (box pattern at the 7th fret);BDEF#A . Easy progression , sort of Todd Rundgren : D/C - D - Am7 - Bm7 .
The triad over bass note thing can get super complicated and involve really complex altered chords . Try for example C#/A .
 
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<jeffa>
Posted
I don't have formal music training, so this is just a "street musician's" take on this topic come to by trial and error.
Once you determine what appropriate scale or scales apply over a certain chord or group of chords (say a straight major scale over a C maj&), if you start on the root (C) and play every other note of the scale, you are adding thirds. The first three thirds starting at the root, give you the basic (rock) triad, and adding the next (seventh), gives you the basic jazz chord. But if you keep adding the thirds, you get other notes, which I think you can refer to to as the extensions. Since on most instruments you can't play all the thirds when you start reaching the extensions, you have to select which ones you'll play, and that is why you might view it as playing another triad over the base chord -- but really, you can also view it as just playing some of the upper extensions of the base scale which (if they are next to each other) happen to be triads.
That being said, there are advantages to viewing this procedure as playing triads over a chord rather than added thirds, since the triads sound so strong together and naturally create a very powerful musicall statement (more powerful and important sounding than just running the scale) and because they are easy to maneuver on the instrument because everyone is experienced playing basic notes in a basic three note chord.
A simple and useful example of playing a triad over a chord is playing is on final chord of a blues. If the song is in C and ends on some cadence ending in the C7, try playing a D major triad (I, II, V). This will give you the 9th, 6th and b5 of C, so it includes some cool notes, yet still sound very coesive. Indeed, this maneuver of using the triad a whole step up from a dominant chord is appropriate over any dominant chord not acting as the I. That's because an appropriate scale for any dominant chord not acting as the I is the Lydian b5 scale, and the chord for that scale if you stack the thirds is I, III. bV, bVII, and the D triad over the C7 is playing the III, bV and bVII) just mentioned.
I haven't fooled around with the next part too much, but I think a lot of the cooler traids to play over chords (nad al ot of what sounds kind of jazzy) can be derived from building the triads from the harmonic and melodic scales, rather than from the major scale. That's how I view the origin of, say, the jazz scale that peole play over an altered dominant. It's the 7th degree of I think melodic minor, which if you stack the thirds, makes an altered dominant chord.
SAnother example is using a mode of the harmonic minor over the dominant 6th in a blues progression. The cool chords usied in jazz are derived from stacking thirds over the harmonic and melodic scales.
The bottom line is that if you fool around with playing triads on, say, the top three strings of the guitar over the basic major scale, as well as over the harmonic minor, and then the melodic minor, you'll educate your ear to these sounds, and then its pretty natural to start hearing their application over various chords.
Anyway, that's my somewhat uneducated take on this topic -- which sounds more complicated than it will once you get the sounds of these triads in you head as applied over various chords in the progression.
 
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<jeffa>
Posted
two typos: in the second paragraph where I mention the D triad its (I,II,V). Also, I meant to say Lydianb7 as the scale that applies to dominant chords not acting as the I.
If anyone has a more formal analysis of this topic, or other commonly used examples, I'd appreciate it.
 
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<jeffa>
Posted
That's wierd regarding the typo, it came up again, perhaps as an automatic correction in my computer -- anyway, fro the D triad I mean: first, third, fifth.
 
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<klasaine>
Posted
Jeffa , here's a really simple and cool way to get all the altered tones over a dominant chord . Minor Pentatonic up a minor 3rd from the root . Ex: A7#9#5 - C min.pent.
(C Eb F G Bb).
 
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<jeff>
Posted
Thanks -- that pentatonic idea a minor third up from the root of the altV is very cool. Can you share any other things like that. I do a few simple things, like in a C Blues, between the I and IV, I use a C# diminshed arpeggio (also playing the C note) as a C altered dominant, the alt V of the IV) to introduce the IV chord. It's very easy to grab, and easier for me than thinking of a C7b9 arpeggio. Any maneuvers alonmg those lines, particulalry as applied to blues would be of great interest. I don't read music, but are there any good books on these things. I got a lot out of one of Robben Ford's teaching videos.
By the way, on my pervious take on triads, I had one other typo I wanted to mention, since I don't want to lead anyone way off base. I meant to say that you can use Lydian flat7 on any dominant chord not functioning as a V. So in a blues, it works well over the IV and VI, and as I mentioned, the final I.
 
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<klasaine>
Posted
Robben Ford books and videos are great at explaining alt.dom. concepts especially in regards to blues . John Scofield has some great material available as well . The pentatonic up a min.3rd is a Scofield device.
A typical and basic jazz approach is to use melodic minor either up a 5th or up a 1/2 step from the root . For ex:G7#9#5 we can use D mel.min - DEFGABC#
Ab mel.min - AbBbCbDbEbFG
Again , between these two scales you've got all the "color" or altered tones of whatever G7 you decide to play . Try one of these mel.min. ideas on your approach to the IV chord .
There's a ton of ways to play "altered" or "out" , I kind of like these . - KL .
 
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<jeffa>
Posted
Thanks.
 
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<Corleone>
Posted
Just recently started visiting the Lessons threads; great stuff. On the Henderson thread, I went off on a spiel about using melodic minor scales over dominant chords...
uhhh, looks like klasaine has covered that here, and in about a third the space.....
ooops. Red Face

As payment for my faux pas, and since I'm here, I guess I owe somebody a lick. Here's a twisted and demented little instant gratification line over A7:

Top line = string; lower line = fret
(digital tab?)

6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
5 4 7 6 5 8 7 6 9 8 8 11 10 9 12

Play as triplets and wind it up with a whole step bend up to A on the 1st string, 15th fret. For extra credit, play in reverse (much trickier, at least for me).

The line is comprised entirely of A and Eb triads:

A C# E Eb G Bb

1 3 5 1 3 5

[(b5 b7 b9) in A ]
 
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<Corleone>
Posted
The spacing looked much different on the "tab" when I typed it; hope it still makes sense.

Digital is still not my friend.
 
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<klasaine>
Posted
Cool lick Corleone . After all those explanations of mel. min. and alt. dom. stuff , someone should mention that the simplest way to play " out " is just to use the mixo-lydian ( 7th ) scale a tri - tone (b5) away . Your A7 / Eb7 line reminded me of that .
 
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<Corleone>
Posted
The possibilities for the b5/tri-tone thing seem to be almost infinite, don't they? I think it might be my favorite harmonic device.
I remember from one of my music history classes that the tri-tone interval was strictly prohibited in music composition during a certain period in history. It was considered the "Devil's Interval". Pre- J.S.
Bach, I would think (?). I wish my details weren't sketchy, but I've always thought that was fascinating.
 
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