I just picked up a good book, It's by Don Mock and it's called Symmetrical scales, diminished and whole tone. I always wondered what those jazz guys were using to do that "outside" sounding improvisation stuff, I found it in this book, I've got my work cut out for me but this book goes through playing scales, sequences, arpegios, and he gives "musical" example. I can already hear Robben Ford, Duke Robilard, even Jerry Garcia in the instructional CD.

for 'easy' outside playing, try taking some (really short, like 4 notes) lick and playing it up and down the neck on different strings etc. this works better on my sax because I can add sharp and flat notes as I wish which is a little more difficult on guitar. just try it

Diminished scales, and Whole Tone scales are pretty hip!
Here's a neat lick:

This works well over a Major chord (Triad), or a 7th. chord.

Play a Diminished 7th. arpeggio whose root is 1/2 step above the root of the chord.

Example: Over a G or G7, play a G#7 Diminished arpeggio.

Like this (String/Fret#);

E/4 E/7 A/5 A/8 D/6 D/9 G/7 G/10 B/9

Then, slide back 1 fret to B/8, to resolve it.

I'm just starting the book and I'm already overwelmed, being a rock player and most of the stuff I rely on to solo is pentatonic based, this whole tone and diminished stuff is a whole different language. I was always in awe at the sounds a good jazz player could squeeze out and this type of playing always eluded me, I figure if I learn some of this foreign language and inject it into my rock and blues playing it would be awesome. Because diminished chords repeat every 3 frets this diminished stuff is very symmetrical as far as the patterns and the way you look at the fingerboard, more mathematical than musical. a lot of the licks and sequences on the cd sound a lot better when they are played fast against the chordal structure, in sixteenth or 32nd notes. It's going to take a while to get comfortable with this concept but I have the time to practice every evening when the wife is at work.

In a jazz or fusion context, the option of using these sounds presents itself quite often; for the blues or rock guy/gal, the most formidable initial hurdle is to simply find practical application - in a way that doesn't stick out like a harmonic sore thumb.

I think a good starting point is Swain's 'diminished up a half step from the root' example. Within a standard twelve bar I-IV-V "blues" context, measures five and six usually contain the IV7 chord (bar #6 is where most of the diminished action happens within a standard twelve bar, and in my experience, it IS most effective on the IV7); in keeping with Swain's 'G' example, the base key would be 'D' (blues), with the IV being 'G'; in this instance, treat bar #5 as G7, and bar #6 as G# diminished seventh, and resolve to a strong chord tone in bar #7 (major third is always a no-brainer choice - F#, with D being root tonality).

"Twelve bar" is certainly the most common format within blues, but it's not the only one; occasionally, you'll run into an oddball format such as Big Bill Broonzy's "Key to the Highway", which is an eight bar. Within this format, bars three and four first present the IV chord, meaning that measure #4 would be choice for the 'diminished up a half step' approach.

For the blues and rock player, the static dominant seventh chord vamp/groove is fair game (a funk thing harmonically invites as much, and even a silly little tune like "Wooly Bully" is a potential springboard). Over a static dominant tonality, I like to mix and match sounds... for example, try using minor7b5 arpeggios up a major third or a major sixth from the (dominant seventh) root, as combined with diminished, whole tone, and augmented ideas, and finish off the phrase with mixolydian ideas, with perhaps a few chromatic passing tones tossed in as spice. And don't forget the "chicken grease" (bends, slurs, slides, etc.).

For myself, the various outside tonalities really began to present themselves after having screwed around with various applications of the melodic minor scale over a considerable amount of time. To avoid confusion, this scale is not a device that is limited to being employed over a minor tonality, but I'll address the minor application first...

In a jazz setting, melodic minor is an excellent choice over a minor II-V-I, but rock and blues players rarely encounter such; as employed over a I minor chord, the melodic minor scale basically yields the somewhat dark sounding min/maj7 sound (the second chord in "Stairway to Heaven"). If you look at how this scale lies within the garden variety fifth fret A minor barre chord, it begins to slap you in the face after a point, that an E augmented chord (and its three other inversions, as cycling through major third augmented inversions) live therein, and you're on your way.

As for dominant seventh applications... melodic minor up a fifth from the root yields a lydian dominant scale - which can also be perceived as being a mixolydian mode with a #4/11 - this is a pet sound of mine over I7 and IV7 chords. Over an altered V7 chord, I like melodic minor up a half step from the root (ex.: Bb melodic minor over A7#9). Some guys, particularly fusion players, dig this sound over a static dominant tonality (Don Mock being a prime example), but for my tastes, it's a bit too 'out', other than as V7 altered. As always, it's a matter of taste.

If you start to connect the dots across the fingerboard, in linking the melodic minor scale positions together, whole tone and augmented sounds should begin to present themselves.


Couple of other thoughts...


As improvisers, it's perfectly natural that we'd want to employ new harmonic concepts into practical application immediately... my advice would be to live with the new sounds for a while... give 'em a whirl at home, give them a shake in the rehearsal studio... don't toss 'em out on the bandstand until they're part of *your thing* - in the way that you naturally hear things. I hear guys toss lines out in the live environment all the time that causes me to think, "yep, dude has learned a new concept, and he's hell-bent on finding a place to put it." Let the new stuff creep into your phrasing in a natural and gradual manner, and don't force it, as it will otherwise sound trite and contrived.


Within the context of "Everyman's Music", 'outside' tonalities are much like pancakes, butter, and syrup - a little bit goes a long way, and there's no need whatsoever to beat your listeners' ears half to death with newfound harmonic concepts. A balls-out "fusion" solo over a basic tried & true blues, pop, rock, or country tune, sounds about as silly to me as does a gutbucket harmonic approach over, say, "Green Dolphin Street" or "Black Orpheus".

As always, choose 'taste' over all other considerations.

As always, solid stuff Corleone. Thanks for the input.

I'm with you, as far as trying to force all of your newest concepts into practice. It always takes me months (if not longer), to feel natural with something new.

I usually try to find one tune, and use that tune as a test bed. I find that working out a few "pre-arranged" runs and changes helps me to understand the functional side of the techniques.

The tricky part, is the whole "taste" aspect. Sometimes it's hard to find a way to use a new idea, until it becomes something I can "hear" in my head. So, finding a tune where I can use the new concept is key. I don't want my new idea to detract from the song. I want it to add something. That's the whole point.

Hey man, what are you, a music teacher or something?!

quote:

Originally posted by Swain:


I'm with you, as far as trying to force all of your newest concepts into practice. It always takes me months (if not longer), to feel natural with something new.

I usually try to find one tune, and use that tune as a test bed. I find that working out a few "pre-arranged" runs and changes helps me to understand the functional side of the techniques.

Totally agree. Some of the stuff that I mentioned in my previous post, I stumbled upon in a rather aimless way ("happy accidents"), and other things I "wrote" (methodically set about how to link various sorts of noises together). Either way, I tend to keep the stuff off the bandstand until I can find a way to deliver it with some of the aforementioned chicken grease.

Pure "improvisation" is actually quite rare, but I always welcome it when it occasionally slaps me in the face; typically, the art of improvisation is likely more closely founded by disciplined and methodical study over a period of time, as combined with the personality trait of being open to riding a cool wave when it presents itself.

quote:

The tricky part, is the whole "taste" aspect. Sometimes it's hard to find a way to use a new idea, until it becomes something I can "hear" in my head. So, finding a tune where I can use the new concept is key. I don't want my new idea to detract from the song. I want it to add something. That's the whole point.

That's exactly it. I'm thankful that I'm involved with music that comes from both of these two places: highly structured, meticulously arranged tunes, and melodic vehicles that beg a looser, more improvisationally conversational approach. If I didn't have both of these avenues from which to draw from, I'd probably lose what's left of my mind.

I've probably learned more about constructing solos that bear repeated listenings from working in recording studios than I have on the bandstand. The live environment (what with various emotional responses, from players and listeners alike) can fool you (me), but tape (media) never lies.

All great info. The Don Mock melodic minor book is awesome too.
Listen to McLaughlin with Mahavishnu to really hear all this in action in an aggressive modern(rock?)setting. As a good 1 chord/key example I recommend "Lila's Dance" from Visions of the Emerald Beyond (not the best Mahavishnu album, but this is a great tune). The song is basically in E minor/major? There's two parts - a Em7 to A7 section and then an E shuffle section. The tricky part is that it's in 20/8 time signature - just think of it as 3 bars of 6 and a bar of two. He employs almost every "out" approach on this jam and never sounds anything other than concise, melodic, relaxed and yet still absolutely fierce.

... and to hear great examples of the symetrical, diminished, and overtone-dominant - check out Mike Stern w/Miles Davis in '81 Live, the "We Want Miles" CD. It's also great for hearing how to play distorted be-bop over a one-chord jam. That record in particular changed the way every jazz and fusion guitar player approached the "one-chord funk jam".